Working my way through an alternative model to the “Money Multiplier”

 

My various scribblings today within the comment section of my previous post, ;-), have been my way of working through a different model than the “money multiplier model,” for which loans *need* existing deposits, and for which loans are *constrained* by the “reserve requirement” associated with existing deposits.

And yes, this uses a very simplified couple of illustrations in working with just the deposit made by one customer, but the exercise still serves the purpose of helping me to work through a couple of different models.

~~~~

For one thing, I’m working with Bart’s comment under the Fullwiler post in mind, when he writes about reserves and about reserve requirements (requirements that are needed in association with demand deposits, yet are unrelated to the amount in loans that a bank may make):

I don’t feel like an expert anymore, but I did do quite a few years as a commercial banker in a large money center bank in New York….Yes in many countries a certain amount of reserves are known as “required reserves” because the regulator requires them to be maintained at the central bank and are based on customer DEPOSITS that a bank has on its balance sheet…in the US the ratio, which varies according to the type of customer deposit and the amount  is set by the Federal Reserve Board and is known as Regulation D. …but THAT type of reserves has absolutely nothing to do with loans…And believe me, banks do not need reserves to make loans. Reserves in that sense can always be obtained from the market or the central bank, after the fact. –Bart

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2012/04/krugmans-flashing-neon-sign.html

~~~~

This comes into play when considering the “money multiplier” model, as well as an alternative to it, both of which I now feel like I know more about via my recent exposure to Steve Keen, Scott Fullwiler, etc., and my current ”working through” (after the earlier working through a lot of us had done together here).

~~~~

USING THE MODEL OF “THE MONEY MULTIPLIER”

…a deposit is needed first before a loan can be made.

A deposit is made, which gives the bank X amount of dollars in reserves (and yes, in the bank’s reserve balance with the Fed).

Further, according to this model, a “reserve requirement” of X dollars is set aside.

Then, a loan, which could only be created after deposit(s) have been made with the bank, would be constrained in its amount by the amount of that initial deposit *less* the reserve requirement.

~~~~

So, by that model, let’s say $100 is initially deposited, and then, as a part of Bank 1′s reserve balance at the Fed, a certain percentage of that initial amount of reserves (let’s say 10%, which would be $10) is set aside as the “reserve requirement.”

Only now, in the “money multiplier model,” can the amount available for lending be determined.

This model says that in this example, $90 is available for lending.

~~~~

Then, once the transfer has been made to the next bank, that bank receives that $90 and must, as a part of the reserve requirements, put $9 aside (10% in our case) within that bank’s account at the Fed.

For that bank, that then leaves $81 that can be loaned out, and so on.

~~~~

The point for me of today’s “working through” has been to work my way through an alternative to the above model.

~~~~

And the alternative model I use below (which I learned from Fullwiler, Keen, etc.) illustrates that no such constraint for bank lending exists – *even* if one takes into account “reserve requirements” associated with deposits.

~~~~

USING THE (MMT/KEEN) ALTERNATIVE MODEL

…let’s use the same initial amount as in the example above:

$100 comes into the bank via a depositor, which is placed into Bank 1′s account at the Fed.  And, of that $100, just for illustration purposes, let’s say $10 of that is set aside – as part of the “reserve requirement.”

In this alternative model, Bank 1 can still make a loan for $100 (or $500).

The “reserve requirement” in terms of this loan only means that when reserves are needed at the time of transfer from one bank to another, Bank 1 cannot use the $10 set aside for “reserve requirements.”

But it can use the available $90.

Up to this point, the two models, in the two examples shown, are similar.  But from this point on, the two models diverge.

~~~~

Bank 1 goes forward with creating a $100 loan.  And at some point after it does so, when the time comes for a transfer from Bank 1 to Bank 2 (when the loan for $100 has been spent), Bank 1 will simply have to borrow the rest of the reserves needed ($10).  And there are a few possible sources to borrow that sum of reserves from - via other banks, or the Fed…

~~~

So, in the alternative example, Bank 1 creates a loan for $100, regardless of the reserve requirements associated with the initial $100 deposit.

~~~~

And now we bring the next bank into the picture:

Bank 2, after a transfer from Bank 1 has been made, now has $100 of reserves in its account at the Fed from that transfer, from which $10 is put aside as the “reserve requirement” associated with the $100 deposit.

~~~~

And Bank 2, also, can make a loan for any amount, just like Bank 1 did, and so on…

~~~~

IN CONCLUSION, ;-):

In the “money multiplier model,” the successive chain of events, from one bank transfer to the next, and so on, shows that, stemming from that initial $100 deposit, less and less dollars could be lent at each successive bank.

But today’s “working through” was not only about helping me to better understand the current, most widely accepted model, but also about helping me to better understand the alternative model that Keen and the MMT folks have exposed me to, in which the loan amount at each successive bank, associated with each successive transfer, is not related to the amount of the deposit made at any of them, nor to the amount of “reserve requirements.”

So for me, it was a helpful exercise, ;-)…

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  • windslice

    You are still making this complicated.

    Error #1.

    “$100 comes into the bank via a depositor, which is placed into Bank 1′s account at the Fed. And, of that $100, just for illustration purposes, let’s say $10 of that is set aside – as part of the “reserve requirement.”

    The deposit of 100 (dunno why we moved from five to hundred, must be hyperinflation) does NOT cause the amount of ‘required reserves’ to change at all. Usually the money will end up in the pool of reserves.

    Error #1.

    “In this alternative model, Bank 1 can still make a loan for $100 (or $500).
    The “reserve requirement” in terms of this loan only means that when reserves are needed at the time of transfer from one bank to another, Bank 1 cannot use the $10 set aside for “reserve requirements.”
    But it can use the available $90.”
    If a new loan is issued to a customer the bank CANNOT use any of the reserves to fund the loan. It is NOT possible.
    Error #3

    “And now we bring the next bank into the picture:
    Bank 2, after a transfer from Bank 1 has been made, now has $100 of reserves in its account at the Fed from that transfer, from which $10 is put aside as the “reserve requirement” associated with the $100 deposit.”
    This is the same as error #1.
    Note # 1:
    Why can a bank not lend out from reserves? This is a balance sheet problem. The bank have to have liabilities and assets in equal amounts. Let’s take a bank that had lent out nothing, but has a customer deposit of 100.
    Asset side 100 (in the reserves)
    Liability side 100 (deposit account)
    Now, how are you going to get the 100 in the reserves onto the liability side as a deposit in an account?
    It is IMPOSSIBLE.
    When customer B comes along and asks for a loan, if the loan came out of reserves the balance sheet would be
    Asset side 0
    Liability side 200.
    So that does not work.
    When customer B comes along he is given a deposit of 100 set against the loan he has taken out of 100. The loan and the deposit are created simultaneously out of nothing. At this point the customer is funding his own loan with his deposit.

    Balance sheet now looks like
    Asset side 200 (reserves 100, loan 100)
    Liability side 200 (2 * deposit accounts @100 each)
    It is that simple. There is NO “money multiplier”, a term that came out of the fractional reserve banking nonsense, that only academics, the popular press and politicians believe in (and would like you to believe too)
    Note #2
    The “Regulation D” was referred to above. This requires that the banks keep 10% of transaction deposits as a reserve once they get above 65,000,000 in total. Hmmm, you say, in that case what is Windy blathering on about, surely that means that 10% MUST be kept as a reserve requirement?
    NO! The banks have developed an interesting technique where if something has the wrong colour, say ‘green’, then they simply repaint it to ‘red’
    http://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/cb/articles/?id=852

    “The widespread availability of retail deposit sweep software now makes binding statutory reserve requirements a voluntary constraint for most banks.”
    There is no effective statutary requirement to hold 10% reserves against anything.
    So, to understand banking
    1. Park anything to do with fractional reserve banking in the archives
    2. Do not introduce reserve requirements into the discussion.

    • http://overthepeak.com/wordpress/ Mystic
      • windslice

        Massive!!!

        QE at work, I guess.

        All that seems to have happened is that nasty assets have moved off the banks’ balance sheet and replaced by non-interest bearing cash deposits at the FED. Which cannot be loaned out……

        All they could do with them is to buy government bonds, which are returning zilch as well, but with a big risk if the Bernank raises interest rates.

        Or they could invest in other highly rated securities, again with a high risk.

        Or they could lend out on the MM, again with almost no return, no takers, and a smallish risk.

        So simply park them at the FED. Great!

        I can see only two “stimulus” effects.

        1. Interest rates have been forced to nothing.

        2. Asset prices have been bolstered to reduce the chance of another bank slipping off the solvency rails.

        Neither of which will create new jobs directly, and the indirect way is to create confidence. Which is not an easy task….

        Hmm, thinking about the bonds, has the Bernank given the banks a free lunch? As he reduced interest rates, the price of the bonds went up. He then buys the bonds from the banks, giving them a once-off profit.

        Now, when he wants to raise interest rates, the banks will not take the balance sheet hit when the bond price falls, and he can keep the bonds until maturity (or perpetually rolling them).

        The banks could buy new bonds at the higher interest rates.

        The “Ancient Mariner” comes to mind.

        Day after day, day after day,
        economy stuck, nor breath nor motion;
        As idle as a painted ship
        Upon a painted ocean.

        Money, money, every where,
        And the economy did shrink;
        Money, money, every where,
        Nor any drop to lend.

        • http://overthepeak.com/wordpress/ Mystic

          This is what the Zarlenga is on about.
          When banks do the money creation thing, they will eventually get all carried away and it will end in tears (now).
          But, not only that; but when the tears flow, the lending stops …… a tragedy of the commons, which leads to more tears (now).

          All, very silly~!

        • snedmeister1

          Hello Windy,

          I think those reserves held at the FED do earn interest now, albeit a minimal amount…

          If they didn’t, the interbank interest rates would probably be zero, ( or far far closer to zero than they currently are )….

          With respect to the `Bad assets` now being on the FED balance sheet, this is exactly my line of thought a couple of Mystics’ posts ago….

          Under REPO’s, the risk is still with the bank, as there is an obligation to swap back ( whether they ever do it is a different matter ), but QE buys the bad asset from them….
          The downside risk is now with the FED, with respect to those assets…

          Under a REPO, the CB could demand more funds from Banks A, to offset the reduced asset price…
          Under QE, the deal has been done….

          Also, when we say “Bernanke wants to raise rates”, the only way he could do this, is to reduce the amount of excess reserves in the system, buy selling lots of bonds ( or stop buying from second hand market )

          I don’t see how he could do that, he needs low rates for banks to lend to each other, to give them more profit when lending to us…. ( Difference between borrowing costs, and lending rates )…

          The banks don’t see it as pofitable enough to lend to us as it is, and we don’t see it as `worth it` at the moment, so raising rates at the FED, would only make the Banks profits even worse, thus reducing incentive….

          TPTB are crying out for banks to get lending again, hitting their profit margin by raising the overnight rates would make it worse….

          I don’t see it happening really….

          • windslice

            Neither do I.
            The Japanese disease has struck.

    • lgrinaker

      Windslice,
      I’m afraid I don’t follow you here (but I appreciate you laying out the way you see the operational aspect of the banking system – I’m serious… I have to ask myself if I don’t agree with that, why don’t I?)
      You wrote:
      “Note # 1:
      Why can a bank not lend out from reserves? This is a balance sheet problem. The bank have to have liabilities and assets in equal amounts. Let’s take a bank that had lent out nothing, but has a customer deposit of 100.
      Asset side 100 (in the reserves)
      Liability side 100 (deposit account)
      Now, how are you going to get the 100 in the reserves on the asset side onto the liability side as a deposit in an account?
      It is IMPOSSIBLE.”
      ~~~~
      Okay, my head is really swimming here, but maybe it’s because you’re beginning to get through to me on something that never dawned on me before as we’ve been talking about these deposits created with the loan agreements.
      I had been thinking that because reserves kick in only at the time of transfer (either to another account within the same bank or between banks), that the deposit side was strictly nominal until reserves were in play; that it was more “in potential” until a transfer takes place.
      When you mentioned the deposit of a loan earning interest, that didn’t compute for me. I was figuring that the only way that could happen is if the debtor decided to create a specifically interest bearing account, say a savings account, and place some or all of the deposit in that. In that case, too, a transfer would take place, in which the appropriate amount of reserves would come from either the bank’s reserve balance or from borrowing.
      But you’re saying that isn’t the case?
      Anybody else have anything to share about any of this?
      Linda

      • windslice

        “I had been thinking that because reserves kick in only at the time of transfer (either to another account within the same bank or between banks), that the deposit side was strictly nominal until reserves were in play; that it was more “in potential” until a transfer takes place.”

        Error #1.

        Reserves DO NOT kick in with an internal transfer. Please stop insisting they do.

        Error #2.

        The deposit is available for instant access by the customer, it is not “nominal” or “in potential”, whatever that means. He can leave it in a checking account at zero interest, or have it in an interest bearing account, or withdraw it in cash or transfer it to someone else.

        It’s his!

        It exists in exactly the same way as all the other money lying in the deposit accounts of other customers.

        As I have already said, the reserves are only used to balance out the balance sheets of the banks across the financial system.

        • lgrinaker

          Give me a fucking break, you asshole. Every single bit of this is *new* to me. What in the hell about that do you not understand??????
          I told you in that last comment that I was having trouble understanding something, that this is how I had begun to imagine it.
          Scott Fullwiler’s post had over 200 comments, and from folks who had been dealing with these issues for years.
          Jesus Fucking Christ. Why in the hell do you keep responding if you hate the conversation so much – asshole!!!

          • windslice

            I guess I won’t be responding any more.

          • http://overthepeak.com/wordpress/ Mystic

            It is new to all of us ….. and a struggle for all of us.
            Time for a break~!?

            • lgrinaker

              Sorry. I was feeling a lot like a kid being lombasted for not getting her ABCs correct, even while doing her very best to do so.

              I think slowly, but surely, I might be catching on. I found this from Bill Mitchell:

              “The role of bank deposits in Modern Monetary Theory”

              http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=14620

              Again, something I feel like I’m *starting* to catch on to as I read it at this time, but know that I wouldn’t have been able to follow it at all before now.

              All I can say is, holy shit. I had absolutely no idea of what I was dealing with in wading into “banking” a couple of weeks or so ago, ;-).

              The logical picture of it, as some are talking about it now, is slowly starting to come to the foreground for me, but wow, ;-).

              My current experience reminds me somewhat of those optical illusions in which you look at a picture, and at first, you see a picture of a young woman, but if you keep looking at it, with folks saying, “no, it’s something else,” you, at some point, finally see something very different, say, an old woman with a scarf over her head (or perhaps some had seen the other view of it from the very beginning) – whoa!

              Yes, I think it is time for me to rest and to pick up something else for a while, ;-).

              Linda

              • http://overthepeak.com/wordpress/ Mystic

                The `angle problem` is a real one, because there is no `real`, or `one way` of looking at all this.

                Good luck with Bill Mitchell. I don’t think I have ever got to the end of one of his posts.

                We aren’t going to get to the bottom of this any time soon, so we may as well take it slowly~!

                • lgrinaker

                  Yeah, I don’t broach Bill’s blog much these days, but I found that article as I was googling a few things, ;-).

                  There’s just not that much out there to help along these lines.

                  Some of the things that pick up the fact that things might not be what we had grown accustomed to thinking they are can end up taking one down very inaccurate paths too (as would likely have been the case with me if, say, I would have tried to make a feature length video production of my still off-the-mark understanding).

                  I imagine there’s an in-between area of understanding in which the old saying, “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing” applies, ;-).

                  Maybe that’s partly why it’s so hard to dislodge established paradigms – because so often, new ideas aren’t quite what they’re initially “cracked up” to be (which seems pretty natural to me – hell, we need room to make mistakes as we try different things, different ideas).

                  And yet, sometimes, when some folks hit upon a truly better understanding, and stay with it…

                  Linda

                  • http://overthepeak.com/wordpress/ Mystic

                    I’m sure you had it for a while there Linda.
                    Den ja went and lost it …..
                    Why did’ja lose it Linda~?
                    Why did ja~?

        • http://overthepeak.com/wordpress/ Mystic

          I agree.
          (so am being a bit pernickity, when I say that the deposit is not `his`, it is the banks~!)

      • windslice

        I’ve been trying to work out why this discussion is going on and on, and you keep repeating the same errors.

        Once more, a final time.

        When a loan is created the bank creates an asset known as the loan, and gives the customer access to the funds by writing a number into his account.

        There is nothing else to consider, no other accounts are affected and the reserves do not feature all all.

        You seem to be fixed on the idea that the “money” has to come from somewhere. It does not. It came from nowhere. That is what banks do.

        Once you throw out all your other ideas and understand this single post, then things will fall into place. Otherwise you are fighting reality with misconceptions, and you cannot win.

      • http://overthepeak.com/wordpress/ Mystic

        Yer ….. Interest.
        Is it transferred from the asset side ……………… or ….
        just fountain-penned in~??
        (first mental glance would say it is fountain-pen again~!)

        • windslice

          Yep, reckon so.

          Somebody has to borrow the cash into existence. so the debt piles up without any end in sight.

          But it does get a bit complicated.

          Tried to think this through a few weeks ago.

          Maybe through defaults and bankruptcies a steady state could be reached?

          Certainly if money was earned through exports or tourism, then for the exporting country there would not be an issue. But then we get to the international balancing of finance, which is another can of worms, I think far more difficult than our “simple banking system”.

          You might like

          http://www.hoisingtonmgt.com/pdf/HIM2012Q2NP.pdf

          Or maybe I got the link from here? Can’t remember.

          • http://overthepeak.com/wordpress/ Mystic

            Lacy Hunt …. Ta~!

            • windslice

              Dunno if you can directly access this one, I’ll see how it posts.

              http://www.merkfunds.com/merk-perspective/insights/2012-07-25.html?registered=yes&utm_source=cc_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2012-07-25-insight

              Otherwise subscription is free.

              Deflation….

              “Alternatives are to buy riskier assets, such as equities; or invest in property, plant & equipment. Those are the types of activities central bankers would like to encourage us to do. But there’s also a good reason to accept the negative yields: there’s a saying that in a crisis, the winners are those that lose the least. Investors may have good reason to be on the sidelines, namely the belief that better prices may be available for riskier assets down the road. Central bankers are spooked by such attitudes, afraid of deflation; as such, they may be tempted with even lower rates, punishing savers. So get prepared for a negative interest rate environment. And we are talking about nominal rates only, before taking inflation into account.”

              • http://overthepeak.com/wordpress/ Mystic

                Axel Merk …… reminds me that I am so happy not to be still listening to `Jim and John`. (times move on) …. Ta again.

  • axionication1

    Hiya Linda, you have been busy ;)
    Puttering away at it myself

    Perhaps we could ask one of the Big 4 Accounting firms (worth an annual combined 120 billion US$!) to explain it simply. I guess they may ask what answer we would like to see (as long as we pay :))

    • lgrinaker

      Hey, axion.

      Nice to “see” you, ;-).

      I was/am fairly proud of this post, feeling I had made it a pretty straight forward illustration of two models, the 2nd of which I think to be more accurate.

      Actually, I still feel that way, ;-).

      But as I mentioned, I’m doing this “working through” first and foremost for myself. I wouldn’t blame folks one bit for just passing it on by, or shaking their heads, or whatever, ;-).

      Now, however, I do feel pretty ready for some rest, at least from this economic stuff, ;-).

      Linda

  • lgrinaker

    Windslice,

    I was working with 2 *models* – the first, the conventional one known as “The Money Multiplier”; the 2nd *model* the new model I’ve been learning from Keen, Fullwiler, etc.

    Of course, they are both presented in very simple terms.

    My conclusion was that the 2nd model was more accurate.

    ~~~~

    I presented the “Money Multiplier Model” much as it had been presented to me as a layperson several times:

    Here, for example, we find it in a paper presented to Congress. The term “fractional reserve banking” is used here, but I’ve heard both that and “the money multiplier” used to describe the same kind of model:

    http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/FRS-myth.htm

    Congressional Research Service Library of Congress
    CRS Report for Congress, No. 96-672 E

    “Because banks are intermediaries, only a fraction of the money that people deposit with them is kept on hand. Most is lent out. The fact that banks keep on
    hand only a fraction of the funds deposited with them is no secret, and is
    apparent to anyone who thinks about it: the lending out of money on deposit is
    how a bank is able to pay interest to its depositors for their funds. Otherwise,
    depositors would have to pay fees to the bank for safekeeping their
    money.

    The practice of keeping only a fraction of deposits on hand has a cumulative effect for the banking system as whole. Effectively, it permits the banking system to “create” money. If a given sum of cash is deposited in bank A, and half of it is lent out, whoever borrows it spends it, and the money becomes the
    deposit in bank B of someone else. Half of that sum is then lent out, spent, and
    deposited. The process continues until the total amount of deposits is a
    multiple of the initial amount of cash. In this example, the cumulative total is
    ultimately twice the initial amount. In practice, the multiple depends on what
    fraction is kept in hand as reserves by the bank and what fraction is kept as
    “pocket cash” outside the banking system. ”

    Here it is again:

    http://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/multipliereffect.asp#axzz21yxI6NQ4

    And here it is in a blog post by Keen:

    http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/31/therovingcavaliersofcredit/

    ~~~~

    As I said, I see the 2nd model is more accurate.

    ~~~~

    Linda

  • b blackstone

    Linda,
    I am from an engineering background and know nothing of economics.
    To compensate for my ignorance I think of the economy as a fluid (water if you like)
    I think that in normal times the mechanisms outside the tank are easily controllable.
    Some of the main mechanisms ( valves) being interest rates and taxation.
    i think in the old days these valves were adjusted unannounced this caused the level in the main tank to react violently. Now the tendency seems to be for any adjustment of the valves to be announced well in advance.
    The problem at the moment is that some of these valves are at an extreme position ie. fully open or fully shut. making it much more difficult to control the level in the main tank.
    Too much tinkering, or perhaps not enough, could cause the the tank to overflow or drain completely, this would have disastrous consequences for us all.
    A very simplistic engineer (me) type view of the economy (enclosed at bottom of post)

    In 1949 a clever Kiwi (Bill Phillips) created such a machine, which came to be known as the Moniac
    links
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_-uGHWz_k0

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MONIAC_Computer

    http://alekskrotoski.com/post/isea-beautiful-machines-a-sense-making-methodology-for-serendipi

    You would think that in these modern times a computer program whiz kid would create a program for a similar machine (preferably from a MMT slant).
    So that student economists and thicko engineers could have a bash at running a pretend economy.
    Perhaps one has been created ?

    • windslice

      Lots of models around. Keen’s has developed one in an attempt to show that the whole system won’t blow up.

      The problem is, I believe Nick already stated it, none of these models can program in the irrational behaviour of the blasted humans. They screw up any attempt at an accurate model.

      The models can be tweaked to fit the past data. But past data is, where humans are concerned, a tricky basis on which to forecast future actions,,,,,

      • b blackstone

        windslice,
        Yes, I can see that being a problem.

        Please forgive a newbie question, as I am obviously playing catch up.
        In your opinion.
        (a) Can the machine be tweaked so that it works correctly again?
        (b) Would repairing/ replacing part of the machine (eg banking section or whatever) make it work again?
        (c)Does it need a completely new and more predictable machine to be created?
        (d)Something other than the above?

        • windslice

          I this case I doubt whether my opinion counts for much. It is just speculation.

          a.) The machine (economy) works the way it does. It just churns away as a result of lots of interactions.

          The terms working correctly or incorrectly are really comparing the current state to the state you would prefer to have it in.

          If you want the economy to provide constant growth, jobs, houses, health care, early retirement and iPads for all, then from your perspective the economy is failing to deliver. I think to achieve that we need the equivalent of the non-existent constant motion machine.

          But if you expect the economy to reflect the sum of the inputs, massive debt, massive liabilities, limited and peaking cheap fuel, then it is behaving correctly.

          I can’t see that there is any possible tweak to give us Utopia. Japan has been in this situation for two decades with no sign of any improvement.

          b) I think there could be substantial improvements made, but they won’t be made because TPTB will not take the brave decisions necessary. Another example of the tragedy of the commons. The Eurozone is a clear case where TPTB are not prepared to sacrifice their positions for the good of the people they supposedly serve.

          c) I doubt if that is possible.

          d) No idea. We will be the victims of whatever transpires from the indecisions, decisions, inactions, actions and generally selfish paths TPTB take us on.

          We have to go with the flow, and the direction does not look very bright.

          • b blackstone

            thanks Windslice,
            From where I stand your opinion counts just as much as any one elses
            (a) An economy that delivered jobs, housing,and some level of security, maybe education as well. would be enough for me.
            Maybe I am hoping for too much.
            I think the machine is bust, for now anyway.
            (b)On this one, I don’t know if I am more pessimistic or more optimistic than you. I think that TPTB will be forced to make some changes.Hopefully for the better.
            Joes post to Linda re debt free money appeals to me ,but I have reserves (no pun intended) and would like to know what else is on the table.
            (c) I agree.
            (d) also no idea.

          • lgrinaker

            I’m really enjoying this exchange, ;-).
            Linda

            • windslice

              After having been given

              “Give me a fucking break, you asshole. Every single bit of this is *new* to me. What in the hell about that do you not understand??????I told you in that last comment that I was having trouble understanding something, that this is how I had begun to imagine it.
              Scott Fullwiler’s post had over 200 comments, and from folks who had been dealing with these issues for years.
              Jesus Fucking Christ. Why in the hell do you keep responding if you hate the conversation so much – asshole!!!”

              Please don’t bug me again.

              Thanks.

              • lgrinaker

                I felt like I was being berated for something that I admitted I was having trouble understanding and had been working so hard to try to understand.

                I later apologized for snapping, as well as conceded that your persistence probably did, in the end, help me out.

                I had reacted so poorly only one other time on this forum – in response to Stevo one time.

                But if you want to keep completely disengaged from me, and me from you, I can accommodate that.

                Indeed, that might be for the best. Sometimes personalities, for whatever reason, just don’t mix well.

                Linda

                • windslice

                  You have already cited Keens, Fullwiler and Mitchell; all have said exactly what I have posted. I do not claim any originality.

                  I do not recollect any apology.

                  1. I regard any posting on the internet as a response I would give to a person standing in front of me. That is called politeness.

                  2. If you feel frustrated, then first of all you have to see where the anger is coming from. As you can always walk away from the screen for several hours and think it through, quick, rude and abusive replies are totally unnecessary unless they have been provoked. I don’t think I have provoked such a response.

                  I have only pointed out where your ideas conflict with Keens, Fullwiler, Mitchell and the thinking that goes on around OTP.

                  3. Anger management is a personal issue, and should remain out of public view.

                  4. I have at times in the past been an arsehole. I can admit that. But I am now a lot older and a tiny bit wiser. In no way can I consider the replies I have made to you should result in me being synonymous with the exit portal of my alimentary canal.

                  • lgrinaker

                    I believe that you are absolutely correct that my response in that comment was a truly inappropriate way to express myself, and for that I do apologize.
                    Linda

                  • lgrinaker

                    Further, after the fact, I see I put in a low blow later when I brought up Stevo.

                    Stevo unabashedly, enjoys ” getting’ into it” for the hell of it, as he explitly wrote to me. He gets bored, and doing that gives him something to do.

                    I know that your priority, within our interchange, was to correct the errors I was making regarding something you were confident you understood well.

                    Linda

    • lgrinaker

      My goodness, blackstone – what interesting work you’ve been doing! (Mystic’s bound to get a kick out of the 5s you’ve incorporated, ;-).)
      And that video you found… (That brought Keen instantly to mind – his presentations often get into the problem of not making the distinction between “stocks” vs. “flows.”)
      Linda

  • joebhed

    Linda,
    Thanks for this and Congrats on the effort to figure this something out.
    And Fullwiler’s post IS a good contrast for the “something” that you are trying to figure as there is out there.
    Hope you don’t mind a couple of sideways comments here.

    The first has to do with the MYTH of the money-multiplier myth.
    Many shorthand versions have been offered of what happens in the relationship between loans/deposits and reserves, and some do make a soft claim that the banks get to make loans based on a ‘multiple’ of the reserves that are held.

    But the real “mechanics” of private bank “money” creation are laid out in the Fed’s publication on “Modern Money Mechanics”.
    In the Fed’s MMM, it states as clearly as possible that the depiction that “10 percent is held and the other 90 percent is loaned out” is, of course, NOT the way it happens.
    And they explain that – if the banks did so – NO NEW MONEY WOULD BE CREATED.
    So banks just issue all the debt they can (what the Fed calls “money” creation), and acquire the necessary reserves whenever needed to satisfy the required reserve relationship.
    (By the way, the real quest would be – WTF are reserves?.)

    I have pointed out on various MMT sites that the Fed has ALWAYS had this explanation of “money” creation on the books, at least since the ’60s.
    It is part of why I call the whole diversion of Keen, Scott, etc as the “myth of the money multiplier myth”.
    To me its all a strawman used to defend the private creation of debt-based money, as we come to understand what ‘endogenous” money really means.
    Which is the second reason why I call it the “myth”.
    What the bankers create using the privilege granted in the Fed Act is private debt owed to themselves. It is not money, even though the privilege allows it to serve as money.
    So, in the end, we have the myth of the money-multiplier myth being that it is the debt-multiplier, and it is not a myth.
    And that IS the problem.
    respectfully.
    Thanks.

  • lgrinaker

    Thanks, everybody.
    As I wrote below:
    Sorry. I was feeling a lot like a kid being lombasted for not getting her ABCs correct, even while doing her very best to do so.
    I think slowly, but surely, I might be catching on. I found this from Bill Mitchell:
    “The role of bank deposits in Modern Monetary Theory”
    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=14620
    Again, something I feel like I’m *starting* to catch on to as I read it at this time, but know that I wouldn’t have been able to follow it at all before now.
    ~~~~
    And windslice, as much as I hate to admit it (and I’d still like to think that there might have been a better approach, but at the moment, I can’t say for certain if that’s true)… your persistence with us, and me, in particular, in these two recent posts I’ve made, may be a key reason why I could read an article like Bill Mitchell’s, linked to above, as I wouldn’t have been able to do, even as recently as yesterday…
    ~~~~
    All I can say is, holy shit. I had absolutely no idea of what I was dealing with in wading into “banking” a couple of weeks or so ago, ;-).
    The logical picture of it, as some are talking about it now, is slowly starting to come to the foreground for me, but wow, ;-).
    My current experience reminds me somewhat of those optical illusions in which you look at a picture, and at first, you see a picture of a young woman, but if you keep looking at it, with folks saying, “no, it’s something else,” you, at some point, finally see something very different, say, an old woman with a scarf over her head (or perhaps some had seen the other view of it from the very beginning) – whoa!
    Yes, I think it is time for me to rest and to pick up something else for a while, ;-).
    Linda

  • lgrinaker

    I feel like I’m a step further along today, I think, with this bank balance sheet thing, and loan agreements, and deposits, and reserves – oh, my!

    ~~~~

    Starting with simply Bank 1 and a loan to Linda:

    5 (Linda’s loan agreement)/5 (deposit)

    ~~~~

    Second, I’d like to transfer my 5 (deposit) to my sister, Carol, who also uses Bank 1.

    As long as we’re dealing with the balance sheet of Bank 1, and not a 2nd balance sheet of a different bank, then the deposit can move around, with no need to find any other asset to balance it.

    The *total assets* and the *total liabilities* of Bank 1 remain balanced:

    5 (Linda’s loan agreement)/[blank] – Linda’s account

    [blank]/5 (deposit) – Carol’s account

    The deposit from my account (Linda, the debtor) has been transferred, within the same bank, to Carol’s account, which she is now free to use any way she wants.

    And Bank 1′s balance sheet remains intact, with 5 on the asset side and 5 on the liability side.

    ~~~~~

    The only time we’d need to call on reserves (whether from Bank 1′s reserve balance, or from reserves borrowed via the Fed or interbank lending) is if a transfer is made to a *different bank*, with a *separate balance sheet*, OR if currency is withdrawn from Bank 1 (which may or may not end up at a 2nd bank).

    That’s because the loan agreement doesn’t transfer, but reserves can (and *cash* reserves can be withdrawn as physical currency).

    And if reserves need to be borrowed, they will be, from non-Fed sources if available, but if the Fed needs to create reserves to be borrowed into the banking system, it will.

    That leaves both banks and their separate balance sheets balanced before and after inter-bank transfers.

    And we already got a good handle on what happens with Bank 1′s balance sheet when the loan is paid back (thanks, blackstone and Mystic).

    ~~~~

    So, as far as fundamental creation goes within this overall banking system, all banks that take part in the Federal banking system have the power to create loan agreements and deposits (which the Central Bank has the power to create as well, for the benefit of commercial banks, to which the CB can lend via banks’ accounts at the CB, also with the obligation to be repaid).

    And all loans made to the commercial banks and made by them to their customers (or to other banks within the system) are under legal obligation to be repaid.

    And the *backstop* in this system is the Central Bank, which never has to repay nothin’ to nobody, ;-).

    ~~~~

    I’m feeling like I’ve got better footing now (and yes, thank you, too, windslice, ;-)).

    Linda

    • http://overthepeak.com/wordpress/ Mystic

      I’ll work backwards –
      I don’t like the CB never has to repay. This cannot be right. If it enters into an agreement, it must repay. But this was just a `finishing twirl` to your comment, and maybe you didn’t mean anything by it~!?

      If Bank A does not have the reserves and has to borrow ….. You say it borrows from wherever and all is cool and balanced ….. but, It can’t be. Think about it~!

      I still don’t like your use of the word `reserves`.
      How about – On the asset side of Bank, we call it `cash`.
      That `cash` is nominally in the bank …… but is more nominally in the central bank (same cash)…. and at the cb is called `reserves` up to a certain amount …….. and anything over that is called `excess reserves` (the Mystic `food hopper`).
      Just by the way you are using the words, makes me feel you have a twisted understanding about this part somehow.

      Otherwise, this sounds fine ….. and cool …… and nice (we may find out one day it is wrong, but I like the look of it today~!).

      Hello Linda.

      • lgrinaker

        Oh, my goodness! I got an email notification!
        ~~~~
        Yes, you’re right – I blew through the borrowing step, just figuring that that wasn’t my main point with this post. But yes, I do understand that steps need to be taken with that. I think I feel pretty comfortable with that… And Scott lays that part out pretty straight forwardly:

        “Now, let’s also assume that Bank A had no reserve balances on hand when it made the loan. How does it transfer reserve balances to Bank B? As it turns out, the Fed provides an overdraft for any payment sent in which a bank’s account goes below zero—that is, the payment is never rejected when it occurs on the Fed’s books. The Fed does this as part of its legal obligation to promote stability in the payments system (more on this in a minute). The rub is that the Fed requires Bank A to clear this overdraft by the end of the day, which Bank A will most likely do in the money markets (such as the federal funds market, often via pre-established lines of credit). So, on the liability/equity side for Bank A, we end with “+Borrowings” in the money market to clear the overdraft.”

        He puts it in a ledger this way:

        Bank 1:

        + Loan/ +Deposit
        - Reserves/ – Deposit
        + Reserves/ + Borrowings

        + Loan/+Borrowings – total left in Bank 1 after transfer

        And at Bank 2 (after the transfer):
        + Reserves/ + Deposit

        ~~~~

        I think the main thing I wanted to convey with this latest comment was that I’m getting a better sense of the importance of the “total balance sheet” for this bank or that bank. And that, internally to a bank, the key is that the total in assets equals the total in liabilities. And I could see how a deposit could be transferred within a bank, with the balance sheet remaining intact.

        (Hello, Mystic, ;-))

        Linda

        • http://overthepeak.com/wordpress/ Mystic

          I have done a video, a video, a video.
          I have done a video …… a video ……..a video~!

          But, while all that gets sorted.
          Ask yourself ……. what happens if assets are marked to market upwards or downwards~?