Ding ding…Round 2.

Audio –

14:07 min.

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  • snedmeister1

    Evening all…

    I think, for me, it is the MMT/MMR angle, which I most anticipate….
    The banking sector creating money from loans etc, is quite established in the mind…
    ( As with many other people, whether they understand how, or have just “heard it” somewhere )

    We all know that Gov’t can issue Exogenous money, in the form of QE etc, but the deficit spending is still this huge issue for me….
    And should be for everyone really…??? 

    Does “Flat world syndrome” hold the key, when stating that only private banks lending add to the money supply..??? 
    ( before reserves are added to by CB’s to reflect the change ), or does MMT/MMR hold the key, in that any deficit spent into 
    circulation, is new money, and thus adds to the money supply before Gov’t “borrowing” etc…???

    The implications are enormous, I’m not surprised you are eagerly awaiting the conference, Nick…!! :)
    I just wonder if it will get that far…???

    It could be that they just end up “bickering”, as often happens, which undermines the message within…??
    No-one actually establishing anything, just a lot of cheap shots between them… 
    ( Like pointing out spelling mistakes, for example…. :)  LOL )

    • Bigcollapso

       One of the reasons that people have such a hard time understanding what is happening, and predicting the collapse point the excessive focus on money. It is at least as important to focus on wealth and at this stage of the situation, I would argue that tracking wealth is more important that tracking money.
      Make a diagram with the wealth and money flow separated, you can leave much of the story about as long as the exponential components are in there. It soon become clear why the system is a ticking bomb.

      • snedmeister1

        Evening BC,

        As much as I agree, that creating money, without adding anything else ( maybe wealth..?? ) can be a bad thing, I still need toemphasise the point that you are still missing…

        You are, I assume, a mathematical person by nature, which is fine, but this is hindering your perspective…

        Yes, ok, the money has ramped up and up ( exponentially ), based on credit for personal consumption in western economies, and that is an unstable
        situation to be in, but you seem to latch onto that fact and see nothing else… 
        Reminding us over and over, that you see the big collapso, because new credit must be issued ( backed by debt ), to cover the interest
        plus initial amount…

        I think you believe no-one else sees that issue…???

        Let me assure you, we do, which is why the emphasis on MMT/MMR is so relevant here….
        It’s why I asked you before,’Have you considered vertical ( exogenous ) money..??”

        It is a very important point to establish when talking about this ( And that is ignoring the Exogenous QE money )…

        Now I know Zed may jump in with the usual “I have repeated many times”, line, but to be honest, this ain’t American politics
        where I listen to the man who repeats himself the most….

        If we establish that Exogenous money exists in the form of deficit spending, then we must then hold the conversation of
        what do we spend on, that increase wealth production….???

        It really isn’t that hard BC, and I know you are smart enough to get it, you just don’t want to consider it for some reason…???

        P.S I would be delighted to see your Wealth/Money flow chart……

        The ever patient, Sned…:)

        • Bigcollapso

          OK, if you understand that it is an exponential system that must be “pumped” to prevent collapse, you have a beginning point. The “pumping” involves taking wealth from the economy and replacing it with a promise. Bernie Madoff style, with the exception that you are printing debt instead of collecting money. The concept is identical other than that. You are taking and consuming wealth and replacing it with promises to take and deliver exponentially more wealth. Not only that, you must keep doing it to prevent collapse. Eventually you have such a shortage of wealth that the system collapses. There is no way out. The only question is whether the system will get so unstable that a kid asking for bubble gum withdraws enough wealth out of the system that it collapses, or a billionaire cashes out.
          With all of this arguing about “preventing” the collapse, you are missing the big story. Watch what the billionaires are doing, watch the fascist laws that are being created. That is where the real story is right now.

          • Paul

            “Watch what the billionaires are doing, watch the fascist laws that are being created.”

            BC, can you elaborate on these 2 points; provide specific details and examples?  I’m curious.

            • Bigcollapso

               Indefinite detention of Americans without trial in the defense authorization act. (Also read BO’s signing statement for this act)
              One billionaire has switched from a career of leveraging up the US government with his actions to lobying for a billionair tax while he collects social security…
              Another is spending a fortune studying BO’s draft records.

              • Paul

                The NDAA shocked even me, and I have almost zero faith in politicians.  I am not into conspiracies, but it does seem a bit too coincidental that the act was signed so quickly, right on the heels of the spontaneous nation-wide OWS and Tea Party protests.

          • snedmeister1


            I thought it was going to sink in…….!!!!

            You are talking about Endogenous money – again..!!!!
            Please, for your own sanity, read about sectorial balances and MMT/MMR, and Vertical ( Exogenous ) money….

            I understand what you are saying BC, but you consider only half the story…. The debt backed money….
            But the truth is, none of us really know…. Do we…???
            ( And that means NONE of us… )

            This is what makes this vid so important…
            If you try, for just 5 mins, to consider you may be ignoring a big aspect of this ( because of your math background..??? ), you
            may actually have some very good points to contribute…

            As it stands, you seem to be voluntarily excluding yourself, from contributing anything of value..???

            P.S. Think back to Nick’s video, where he had the man banging his head with the bin can….


            • Paul

              BC, I think Sned is making a sound (and patient) recommendation.  I have only criticized you 75% of the time, which makes me and Sned your best buddies on OTP.

              • snedmeister1

                Ahh, buddies…. ( sniffle, sniffle.. )… I have a BFF…!!!

                I’m welling up, Paul…!!! :)

                On a serious side though, I think I am making a fair comment to BC, and maybe the Fascist direction your country is taking ( if they are ),
                is a big issue…???
                I don’t know, it hasn’t been on my radar ( probably because I live in England..?? )….

                If it is more important than the collapso scenario, then I am sure many will discuss this with him….
                Exponential collapso though, has been done to death I think…???

                • Paul

                  Hey there, BFF!   or is it BMF?  best mate forever?  :)

                  As far as Fascism goes, England wins hands down over the United States of America.  You see, England can be superior to America sometimes~!  ;)
                  You have CCT cameras, we have legal assault rifles.  There is not a chance in hell that the U.S. govt is going to control 310 Million gun-toting, God-fearing, patriotic maniacs?!  We can still buy a $400 AK-47 with 30 round magazines and 5,000 bullets in the same store where we buy our milk, eggs and Chinese-made, lead-based children’s toys.  That’s called Freedom, Sned~!  Now, it’s my turn to sniffle, sniffle.

                  But seriously, England is on the cusp of a true, 1984-style society.


                  “Under the proposal, reported in The Sunday Times of London, a law to be introduced this year would empower the authorities to order Internet companies to install hardware enabling the government’s monitoring agency, Government Communications Headquarters, known as GCHQ, to examine individual communications without a warrant.’

                  WTF?!  Are you kidding me?  Are you Brits crazy or lazy enough to allow this law to pass?
                  Stop feeding the pony and fight for your individual rights and privacy!  You will be sorry in a few years if you don’t make a stand today.  Otherwise, if all your internet communications are monitored by the UK govt, then we can’t be BMF’s anymore, Sned.  Now, that’s a sniffle, sniffle thought.  Or maybe you already work for GCHQ, Sned Bond, and have been sent into OTP to monitor the Mystic for subversive activity!

                  by the way, “feed the pony” is from my new online reference source:  http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/f.htm
                  How else is an American supposed to understand you Brits if you choose not to speak in English~?!  ;)

                  • snedmeister1

                    Mr Paul.

                    Are you mad…??? :)

                    We are better at lots of things……….. Football….. Football…..Ummmm, Football…!!! :)
                    Did I mention football…????

                    Seriously though, I heard that “monitoring the net story”, on the radio yesterday after posting that comment….
                    I’m not sure exactly what will change…
                    Lets be a bit realistic here, at the moment, they get the info anyway….

                    We spy on American citizens, and you spy on ours….
                    Then we swap info…!!!
                    Having said that, it is a move in a negative direction, for sure….

                    Going back to the England being great thingy….
                    To be honest, I try not to basque in the past/present glory of England too much, mainly because, if I claim glory for progress I had no input in,
                    then the implication is that I should take responsibility for the failures I played no part in too… 

                    Not my style, I prefer to look at my individual successes and failures, and therefore consider myself more of a
                    “Standing on the shoulders of giants”, kind of man…. :)

                    ( AKA agent Bond..!!! ) :)

                    • Paul

                      Hello Sned,

                      I am mad as bag of ferrets (from my slang dictionary)!
                      Of course I was being facetious, but I keep do keep an eye open whenever the govt passes laws that encroach on individual privacy and liberty.  It’s the frog  boiling in the pot of water thing.  TPTB slowly, but steadily, erode our individual rights and say it is the good of the whole, the stae.  It’s a slippery slope.  Now, it might just be a legal maneuver to avoid warrants.  In 5 years, you are making boots in a gulag in the Orkney Islands for not being more enthusiastic in supporting the state football team.
                      You should ask why does my govt need to read all my emails and watch me on CCT 24 hours a day?  What’s the reasoning?  To protect me?  Or is just one more method of control imposed upon its citizens?  Debt is also a method of control.
                      Now, get back to work, Comrade, or else.  ;)


  • NascentMind

    Governments manage money feed for the livestock. Central Banks create the money for the Governments to feed the livestock?
    I can’t see how a government can create money only as a secondary function.

    I did notice the word numerical :) (numerical algorithms exponential function ?)

  • Paul


    London Scool of Economics and BBC4 will provide more exposure for Steve Keen.


    (Looks like all the tickets have already been taken—good sign)

    •  Yeah, Paul Mason has been pushing it.
      It may turn into a bit of a leftyfest (not so good).

      • Paul

        From what I’ve seen so far, Keen is right on the mark.  His software program, “Minsky”, should prove his theory.  You nailed it with the static (Krugman) vs. dynamic (Keen) modeling discrepancy.  The Minsky software will employ differential equations, which will provide a much more accurate assessment of the factors leading up to the Minsky Moment.  If it works correctly, Keen should be able to employ the program to demonstrate its accuracy in past recessions and the Great Depression, as well.
        A Leftyfest on BBC4 is not good.  He needs near universal appeal to create global acceptance.

        Also, I am not sure so sure about his debt jubilee concept.  It doesn’t sit right with me.  What do you think of his debt jubilee proposal?  Can it be implemented so that the frugal savers are compensated?  If not, I think it is dead on arrival; sort of a private sector bail-out for spendthrifts.  It would create a huge moral hazard and be unfair to those of us who live within our means.  I would not support that at all.  Am I misreading it?

        •  Keen has fallen into the trap that people always unknowingly set.
          Person A. points out a big problem.
          Person B. asks how to get round the problem.
          Person A. should first establish that B. understands the problem….
          …then say something like – `Pointing out the problem does not mean I know how to get round the problem` (and leave it at that, but I can understand the pressure to say something~!).

          • Paul

            He needs to stay focused on the failure of neoclassical economist modeling, at least for now.  He is going to dilute the strength of his tonic otherwise.  Possible solutions can come in round 2.  Also, he likes to bring global warming into his presentations.  I’m sure it is a pet peeve for him, but it is apples and oranges for the purposes of this debate.  Again, maybe bring it up in round 3 or 15, not in round 1. 
            He seems to be using his new found notoriety to lay out all his goals at once.  Now, he runs the risk of being labeled as that nutty “debt jubilee” or “global warming” economist.  We all know how vapid the MSM and general public is.

            •  He is getting all that sort of advice in the comments on his blog…..which is good.
              It is like dozens of people in the corner of a prize fighter, all shouting advice.
              He has done a lot with the `Occupy` crowd as well.
              As you say, the MSM has a lot of silly labels they can pin on him.

              He will be what he presents at the INET conference~!

              • Paul

                I wish you would provide a few sound bits of advice to him as well.  You know his stuff better than most, Nick, and you are a true voice of reason.
                Keen appreciates the efforts of the Occupy movement.  He also spoke well of the Tea-party crew.  At least the initial Tea-party movement, before they were co-opted by the Neocon assholes.  Sarah Palin hitching her wagon to them.  What an opportunistic bitch.  That was orchestrated by TPTB.
                The original Tea-party was more Keen-ian than people give them credit for.  Keen recognized this fact.  They were totally against the bail-outs for the insolvent banks and corporations.
                Remember, we need universal appeal.  This is not a left-right debate.  It’s for the benefit of all of us.

  • Windcutter

    That brief piece by PK must be about the worst I have ever seen. Just because his name is PK doesn’t mean that he should be allowed to publish any old crap.

    What does IS-LMists mean?

    Didn’t get that at all,

    The man is now clearly a dogmatic old twit, who keeps digging himself into a bigger hole. He is stuck in the flat earth belief and cannot even contemplate that it might just be orund.

    •  I bless him for making the stink go further.

  • snedmeister1

    Could this be round three heating up…???


    As much as I like the Astronomy analogy, I must say, my vote is with “Flat world syndrome”….:)
    Although I may be slightly biased..!!! :)

    •  I am going to go at it as well.  Based on this – http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2012/04/krugmans-flashing-neon-sign.html
      (if you want to stay ahead~!?)

      • snedmeister1

        Scott, is another one who seems to have immense brain power….

        Not only can he follow it, but he can describe the intricate detail and workings with precision matched by few others, but also
        manages this in a fashion that is easy, ( easier ) to follow….

        He is a valuable asset in the Keen camp, me thinks….!!!??

        •  He plays a hell of a game for the MMT side as well.
          (I struggle to keep up with the stuff he says)

          • snedmeister1

            Yes, he makes good debate in the PragCap comment section….

            I must admit, I get lost with the equations on there….
            But the wording, it’s a little easier…. ( Perhaps easy is the wrong word…??? )
            How about “Better” than most…???

            I am anticipating Scott more than Keen ( if he gets really involved ), primarily because of his MMT/R link….

            MMT/R, would be the natural progression for him to “air” his views in the limelight, IF he establishes his authority in the public domain now….

            Big currents could be forming in the economic waters…???
            Exciting times ahead me-thinks..??! 

            One thing I am sure of, Scott certainly knows his stuff inside out, and the Krugman followers better do their homework if they
            want to challenge him on anything…!!!!